So, Coker has got me thinking about societal pressure a lot lately. He’s been talking a lot about the difficulty of not judging other people. Which is nearly impossible, and we all know that. But it got me thinking about the question of why we judge. And I’ve been wondering if perhaps this is our pack behavior. This is our way of passing down important knowledge that is not easily ascertained by cause and effect. Like “have sex and you’ll get pregnant” is pretty simple to teach kids. It’s much harder to get them to understand how much their life might suck if they have a kid at 12. How they might not get to finish high school. How much fun they might miss out in college, etc. Thus we build in societal judging of young mothers. It’s worked decently well for millions of years. And it’s fascinating to me, because we’re obviously in a period where it’s less accepted to judge people. Or at least we think that’s true. In reality we’re just better at segmenting ourselves into populates that just judge fat people, or welfare moms, or soccer moms. Whatever, our little tribe is not. But we encounter so many other tribes in our day to day lives that we get to the point where we pretend we’re not judging anyone. Except in reality we are. Oh we are…

Obviously there are great reasons to buck the trends. The struggle for civil rights is a great reason to buck conventional wisdom. But at least with race now we live under the opposite polarity. We judge people who have the slightest tendencies to do or say things that are degrading to a particular race. So we haven’t gotten rid of that particular taboo. We’ve just moved the mass consensus to the other side. I’m not sure you can actually get rid of this tribal judging. I just think you can move it around on the value map.

It’s interesting to see how people fit into these trends. Some people seem to be the tastemakers in this respect. Setting the bar for those in their tribe. And sometimes various people in the tribe can be the tastemakers on different subjects. Perhaps someone who is a strong foodie in the tribe decides which wines and cheese are good. And the rest of the tribe follows. Because they don’t know as much about wine and cheese. And suddenly you have an entire tribe that judges people who drink St. Genevieve. But is that a bad thing? It’s more a fascinating thing. And when the St. Genevieve drinkers come up against this tribe, perhaps they have a reason that St. Genevieve is a good wine. Perhaps they are thrifty and feel that it’s a waste of money to spend that much money on wine. Their tribe judges people who spend excessively on food. Who’s right? Who cares? These are both valid points, and their judging helps to mold their tribes.

I think one of the unfortunate fallouts of this is that some people can’t take the criticism. This is a clash of cultures man! You can’t just say, I’m pissed off by this or that makes me angry. You’ve got to confront the idea. No one in life is going to have the same life experiences and there’s no way they’re going to understand how your experiences shape your opinion unless you tell them. And then confront your own. Which one is more valid for you? And are you perhaps angry because you see the validity of the other side, but it’s not what you want in your life? Might you need some personal growth and rejection of past dogmas? Unfortunately, with certain people and certain settings we don’t feel free to debate. Work is a great example of this for me. So there becomes less and less to talk about. Because if you can’t talk about your values, what are you really talking about? TV, I guess.

The downside to tribal life is that while we can get meaning and security from keeping a set of values, we also can stagnate and become “old fashioned”. Becoming “old fashioned” I don’t believe is a function of believing in certain things that are no longer hip. It is a function of settling in, and no longer accepting new ideas. Of settling in as one of the tribe with no input on direction.

We no longer have vast country sized tribes. You don’t see Nazi Germany’s or 1950’s US anymore. We’re fragmented. Our migration patterns, and communications patterns allow us to find a very small, personalized tribe. And to reform our tribe as we see fit. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Am I the only one thinking about it (and feeling that perhaps it is postive for our society as a whole)?

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Comments

mcoker (http://www.duderonomy.com)

2007-06-29T20:47:29.000Z

Guess I better start watching TV :)

Tim (http://www.loadedguntheory.com/blog/director/listblog/tim.html)

2007-06-29T20:59:15.000Z

Sorry, I shouldn’t have put that in there. It was a joke, but it’s not true. Talking about TV at work is a massive value discussion. Are you one of those people who says, “I don’t watch TV”? Or one who only watches PBS? One who loves American Idol? Documentaries? Lost and Heroes? History Channel and 24? Law and Order? These things all say a lot about you and group you into larger stereotype tribes. Hmm stereotype tribes. That’s something to look at. The more I’m thinking about this, the more I think what you’re struggling with, and what I’m trying to say have something to do with the issue of leadership. We all pretty much agree that the world is arranged into various leader/follower hierarchies. I wonder what happens if one is a leader, but feels uncomfortable or does not want to lead. What values do you present to the world. Where do you fit? I’m going to get this conversation clarified in the future. I’m just trying to sort it out. And I’ll be honest, my current view of societal judgment as a positive form of behavioral checks and balances is a pretty new idea for me. I have a feeling it’s not the final answer I’m driving towards, but it’s leading me to some pretty interesting questions.

mcoker (http://www.phat32.com)

2007-06-29T21:02:25.000Z

I were be just kiddin’ too

Travis (http://the-holmes.blogspot.com)

2007-06-29T21:14:46.000Z

Two thoughts immediately spring to mind: 1) I agree that we all practice judgment against those with whom we disagree over matters that we deem as core. In some cases, these may be irreconcilable differences, though that doesn’t necessarily mean that people have to hate one another. I think confronting the ways in which we judge and the negative actions and thoughts that brings about within us is an exercise that individuals and groups can benefit from. Which I suppose leads into my second thought… 2) I don’t think it’s healthy to only associate with people with whom we agree over everything. Fortunately, that’s all but impossible unless you live in a compound, but I guess the real problem is that it’s not healthy for people who disagree over important matters to never talk about the things they disagree about. And I think many people have become masters at doing that. I know I am, probably because I’m simply not the confrontational type. I wish I were sometimes, maybe it would be healthier. I might be rewording what you said, but I’ll just go with it anyway. In an ideal setting, people are comfortable enough with their ideas to talk about them, but don’t have their ego so invested in being right that they can’t listen to another point of view with an open mind. In other words, I guess it would be nice if things could get heated without getting hateful.

Tim (http://www.loadedguntheory.com/blog/director/listblog/tim.html)

2007-06-29T21:32:31.000Z

Whoops wrong post. You’ve got exactly what I’m saying. Although, I’d say that in an argument unfortunately it will almost always get hateful. I think it’s related to sport. We get competitive and use words like “killing” the other guy, or “massacring” the other team. Julie and I have gotten better about this with her Father. We used to just stew at each other after a heated conversation. Now we stop, mop our brows, and doing a sort of “good game” type wrap-up to the discussion. Basically, we kind of summarize where we agree and how much we have in common, and we also highlight the points we disagree on. For some reason the summation helps make it productive in my mind too, because I know what I should take away to think about.

Travis (http://the-holmes.blogspot.com)

2007-06-29T21:38:31.000Z

Okay, see, that last part, that’s what I’m talking about. The wrap-up. The understanding that perhaps minds haven’t been changed, but that you’re clear on where you stand, and maybe the other person isn’t such a fuckwad after all. I think making the effort to do that is worth it, well, in a lot of cases anyway. I think it’d be a better world if we did that more. I disagree with, I’d say, 50 - 60% of the things that you say. Something like that I haven’t actually done the math to work it out. Sometimes I say so, sometimes not. Depends on my mood I suppose. But somehow we manage to remain social.

mcoker (http://www.phat32.com)

2007-06-30T01:02:06.000Z

you’re both fucking retarded… you’ve got it wayyyyyy wrong :-P

Ashley

2007-06-30T03:05:58.000Z

I wish you had all been there last year at Guerros when Travis told my sister off. I have only seen him become confrontational but a handful of times. It was awesome. I so, so struggle with the judgment thing. I come from a very judgmental family, it is the atmosphere I came up and attempted to thrive in. One day while talking to someone I realized that I was leading my new parental life as a hypocrite. Travis and I strive to treat Henry with respect, to respect his feelings and actions, and to love all of him; the good, the bad, the tantrums. My a-ha moment of came when it occurred to me that we were only treating Henry this way. If we really want to progress and somehow evolve we need to TREAT all people that way and Henry needs to see us do it. And that is one tall order.

Kate (http://katiekatworld.blogspot.com)

2007-07-03T03:53:03.000Z

Sorry, once again I am late to the party. So probably this is just going to be read by you, Tim. Is okay. I am very judgmental. I strive not to be. A lot of times, it is a simple case of low self-esteem. I look at others and point—this person is doing x, which I view to be lower or have less value than what I do, therefore I am better and therefore have some worth as a human being. I can partially blame that on our parents. Mom especially always seemed to have a reason that what we were doing was more valuable than what other people were doing. Rather than saying, we choose to focus our time and energy on x,y,and z, she would point out that other people are doing the wrong thing. Example: Katie: Why can’t I ever have a hero sandwich like my friends? Mom: Look at them, look at their families. Are they all fat? Yes, that’s right, they are. (As you know, fat is to be feared and therefore, she was a smarter and more loving mother than the other mom) Anyway, I’m not saying that the way I was raised has to define the rest of my life, but I have recently noticed that I judge others as a way of judging myself. If you look at it rationally, it doesn’t exactly make sense. Am I doing what I think is good, right, rational? Who cares who isn’t doing it that way? Does it make it any less right if I am in the minority?

Kate (http://katiekatworld.blogspot.com)

2007-07-03T04:01:34.000Z

P.S. I hear you on arguments. I don’t like debating, especially about things that I hold dear. It just seems like a useless waste of energy to me. And I always feel like I’m being personally attacked. And if people don’t argue well, it also makes me crazy, no matter what they’re saying. My least favorite tactic is when you make a good point and they ignore it and change the subject. Argh! I am a weenie when it comes to things like this. Kelli was astonished to only recently find out that I am actually quite liberal. I didn’t want to talk about it because I didn’t want to fight about it with her. Interestingly, on some levels because we don’t argue about our differences, it’s actually good for me to see the similarities in what we truly believe. It’s easy to split into us vs. them except for when you spend time with people you truly respect. And does it make me a bad person for respecting someone who’s pro-life and prays for the children who are waiting to be adopted? The older, special needs, family group kids? At the very least, I can’t lump that person in with people who shoot abortion providers.